Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Hello everybody and welcome to the Integrated Home, the podcast that's produced by the Home integration community for the home integration community.
My name is Geoff Hayward and for this episode we're taking you to the CEDIA Tech and Business Summit at the Business Design Centre in Islington where in front of a live audience we were joined by an expert panel to discuss the topic of collaboration to build success.
Welcome to the Integrated Home.
On my panel I am delighted to welcome today an interior designer, an integrator and an architect, Alex Dawley, would you like to introduce yourself?
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Yes, I'm Alex Dorley. I have been an interior designer for 12 years. I run my own practice working in high end residential and commercial space places and I've also co founded United in Design and I am also the co founder of Avon Collective.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Excellent. And I met Alex last year when she did wow House. You did a room at wow House which was.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: I did the date night media room with this gentleman on my left hand side.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: The gentleman on your left is.
[00:01:18] Speaker C: Hi everyone, I'm Dagesh Singh from Nucleus, founding Director, going in AV now 15 years, nucleus, about 11 years old. We like to say bedrooms, boardrooms, battlefields and boats because we do resi, commercial, military and marine warehouse with Alex last year and warehouse again this year. So Wowza twice, but mainly in the high end residential space.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: And then Kate.
[00:01:40] Speaker D: Hi, my name is Kate Clare. I'm from Loud Architects. I started loud architects around 10 years ago with a vision to create wonderful but kind of unique spaces. And I'm also very passionate about spending clients budgets well. So I'm writing a book which no architect ever says, but I've got a book out next year with the riba.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: And what's that book going to be called?
[00:01:59] Speaker D: Build Beautiful, Spend Smart bbss.
[00:02:03] Speaker A: Okay, excellent. So we're here to talk about collaboration and first thing I wanted to ask you, Alex, probably talk to you about this one, is at what point should an integrator enter the project conversation and at what point do you normally involve an integrator in the conversation?
[00:02:21] Speaker B: So having worked with Durgesh and learned a huge amount last year when I was doing wow immediately I think at the very start, I think the problem with our industry, and I'm speaking from a design side, is that we are often brought in after the architect and sometimes even after the main contractor has been sort of instructed on the project.
And what that does is it means we are on the back foot and often we'll look at drawings and say, oh, I think things need to be redrawn and you know, and so everyone's just got their backs up because nobody wants anybody stepping on anybody else's toes. And so I always try to say to my clients and through social media and education, because I do feel that this is an education piece as well to our clients. To say the most successful projects are those that are collaborative from day one. You know, when you're list, you know, you're listing the brief. Then if you're talking about technology, then you know that you need, you know, an integrator. So they should be around the table, I think, having those roundtable discussions. Architect, gc, project manager, quantity surveyor, you know, everybody there at the start, you know, we're here to work together.
I also think that we should stay in our lanes in our areas of expertise. We should find people that are experts in their field and lean on them, learn from them. But also like, don't take on everything ourselves. I think as interior designers we try to do too much. We try to wear all of the hats.
And that is not the way in which we should be doing this. It's about leaving ego at the door and embracing other people's talents.
[00:04:11] Speaker A: Sounds very impressive to me. Right, Kate, Architects have various stages where you will be thinking about getting an integrator involved. Typically they would be involved at stage two, I'd imagine. But is there a case for them being earlier in the planning process?
[00:04:29] Speaker D: Completely. I mean, we work on a mix, I'm sure we all do, from residential to either non listed or listed. Conservation area, non conservation area.
Early as you can get someone in, you know, rightfully so. Then it's even the case we're doing at the moment is notching of joists. You know, we have to tell the planners at planning applications how much meter cube we're taking out the original fabric. So sometimes we have to guess and then sometimes it has to be. If it's a really special project, sometimes it might have to go back in for planning for a riser or something. Taking out a listed building, paneling that could have been stopped early on and the whole project could be even a year before just because of that early on stage.
[00:05:07] Speaker A: And durgesh, I mean, this is all great and we're all being very nice, super nice on this panel. But what's the reality? Like, do you often get involved as early as you'd like?
[00:05:15] Speaker C: No, no one never gets the opportunity. And I think that's the big education. Like Alex says. I think it even hit home when we did warehouse two years ago. We realized the power of that original first point of interaction and about the room. And when Alex described that room to me, we weren't talking about tech.
We spent time talking about the story and the narrative of the room. And it was, I'm the client for the rooms of Gaish. It's going to be my empty nest when my kids leave. It's date night. And we were talking about what the mood is of the room and the storytelling of the room. And that's what then gave us lots of ideas for the technology.
And you know, if we look here, where we are at Cedar Tech Summit, look at all the amazing products and solutions we have, we're not supposed to be selling just boxes because that's the box we want to sell. We have such a vast array of tools in our arsenal and we have that knowledge of what's available in the market and it's our responsibility to share that with designers and architects being, oh, this is a possible solution, but we can only do that if you bring us in early. And we're not just creating or just satisfying a bill of materials, but we're actually helping in creating that vision and making it come to life in an aesthetic way.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: So that kind of alignment that you have on the design intent, I mean, Kate, you, if you're wanting the integrator involved early before you go to tender, the barrier to that, I would imagine is that an integrator might turn around and say to you, well, I'm not doing a design for free.
[00:06:35] Speaker D: Exactly.
We had a great time at ISE together and I met an integrator out there and we had a conversation. I sent some plans really early on and they suggested they would do the design for free. But ultimately I as an architect are able to write in subsets, subcontractors into the design spec and say to the contractor, they're non negotiables. They have to be it. And their fee is then paid for later on. So they get paid later on. It's a roundabout circle. You help me early on as well and then I'm going to be educated by you because I'm, as you say, not an integrator myself. We rely heavily on the industry to tell us as well, you know, I don't want what we call builders acne, you know, all over the ceiling. We don't want to have lovely set out beautiful grids and then have like a box somewhere else because that's where the kind of, as you're saying the non collaborative works doesn't work then.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: So yeah, I suppose that resonates with you as well, Alex, doesn't it that kind of approach that you want that design help early on?
[00:07:32] Speaker B: Yes, it does. But I also think the people should be paid for their time completely.
And so I would always be saying to clients or people that are holding the purse strings, yes, I'm going to bring this, you know, because at the end of the day it's a consultant, you're consulting and there's a fee.
And that is what it is. I think we have done things a certain way for a very, very long time and it is time for a change. But it's only going to change if we all say, actually I do want to be paid and I should be paid. And this is the norm. Because I think the way in which we have been doing has become the norm and we now need to say, no, this is how we're going to do it and this is how we're going to move forward. And then people will just understand and they will get it and it will just become second nature. That I understand. If a consultant comes in, there's going to be a bill.
[00:08:26] Speaker A: How open minded do you think clients are to paying for yet another consultant?
[00:08:32] Speaker D: I mean, I can take this, I think early on as well. If you are saying the health and well being. Take a typical blind box for example. You know, we put that in in our building control drawings.
Right the way really early on stage because it's in a technical section set out, you know, who's going to do that blind box? Yes, we can use a sort of rough template, but I think if we can get that in early, then I think that leads itself to actually being health and well being and actually bringing a blind down. You don't need so much control and you can rely on a bit more passive ventilation, for example. But the health and well being at the end of the day, if you can sell say to them, sell to them. Just say at the end of the day using technology for that reason, it's going to end up saving the money in the long run and spending the budget just for what 100, 500 pound box and ceiling.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: Sounds like the education process is with interior designers, with architects, but also with clients.
[00:09:21] Speaker C: Yeah, everyone.
What we do on a project is we always say to a client in the beginning, two options. We'll give you a rough spec if you commit to the project and pay us a labor deposit on the project. This is the way we do it. We will do all the design work. You've paid us a labor deposit. At that point we know the Jobs can't go anywhere else and we're happy to adjust the spec, but you've paid a down payment towards a job and if you feel uncomfortable with that, pay us a consultancy fee and we'll just do the design work and then you can go to market. And we always give those two options as the way we do it. And I think if everyone needs to sort of put the consultancy hat Alex's point on a bit more and be brave with that, because it is your time, it is your expertise and that. And even if you sort of put, you know, yourself in on the project, it's written in by the architect. A number of times that goes sideways when a contractor's best mates with another AV company can't really rely on that. So it's it. I think the time is valuable and people should be paid for their time and do it in doing it properly. And then at least you're also, when the, when it's transactional, you have to deliver something of quality as well. You can't just be specifying your favorite products, you have to be putting something in there that you can stand behind saying, look, this is. We've taken the client through a journey. We know their requirements, we know the architecture requirements, we know the interior design requirements and we've filtered all this out. We've come to this list of products for these reasons and these are the non negotiables and these are the ones that if there is a budget constraint, could be switched out, but these ones are staying as they are. And then you form a document like that and that provides specification for the house and I think that's a valuable thing. I think the more we all unify on that message, it's better for everyone.
[00:10:49] Speaker B: Transparency for the client is, well, you know, they are coming to us as interior designers because we have built these professional relationships over many, many years. So if you say at the very beginning, the way in which we approach this project is going to be that we're going to bring these consultants in, you are going to have very clear guidelines in terms of cost, quality, time frame, etc. You know, you shouldn't be, you know, you shouldn't be moving forward until they have, you know, that overview. Because like you say, you don't want to not do that at the beginning and then they're either unhappy because they didn't understand and they didn't have time to understand and the quality at the end isn't what they expected, or then they're hit with a bigger bill later down the line because, you know, they, oh, I don't like that. Well, rather, you know at the beginning that it's going to cost X and you can only get to that point if you've put the work in and the aftercare care.
[00:11:45] Speaker D: So lots of my clients say, we want xyz and it's the.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: This is tech.
[00:11:49] Speaker D: At the end of the day, it needs kind of looking after. So I think educating on that. And back to that point, I think we were talking a little bit earlier about maybe introducing cpd. I was chatting to a few people who may be in the room and having a look around the gray out there. And introducing CPD to architects is a really great thing because we can get knowledge and all of a sudden we go, well, actually, I know I need a riser a bit bigger and having that really early on.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: But you're not the experts, and architects are often looked at as the expert. So how can you possibly know enough to have those detailed conversations with the client without a technology integrator being involved?
[00:12:24] Speaker D: Yeah, you definitely need an integrator, definitely. And that's why we touch on it. Architects need to do 35 hours continued learning per year in order to be an architect under the ribo.
And one of the parts is technology. So taking that off with an integrator who can show you a vast array of products, then you can start to have that knowledge early on, I think, and bring that in.
[00:12:46] Speaker A: How do you think interior designers are now thinking about technology integrators and technology in general? Do you think it's changing, Alex?
[00:12:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it is changing. Clients are becoming more discerning, for sure. There's so much information out for them to duck now. And on every project that I work on, tech and AV is a conversation. I mean, like anything, you know, people have, you know, their budgets and they can be huge budgets. It's about where they place value.
And I'll have some clients that, you know, it's all about the tech, and then others that are like, yes, I want that, but I just want it to be good. I don't want to see it and I want to spend lots of money on other things. And it just really depends on where they want to, you know, spend their money and how far they want to take it. And like you say how much they're willing to, like, invest in that, look after it for the long term.
But we're seeing a lot of.
It's definitely moving beyond sort of just speakers and sound and TVs and things like that. You know, they are looking at, you know, there's lighting control, security and there's a lot of kind of, of like wellness integration now but like with, with AV and technology on that side of things as well. I think after Covid we saw that people want their homes to deliver in so many different ways now. And lots of people aren't actually going out as much and they're doing lots of things at home.
So you know, yes, we have the home offices and stuff, but we have the gyms and we have the wellness centers and we have the yoga center studios and we have like the cinemas. And they just want their homes to function for all of their kind of day to day and leisure activities as well.
[00:14:35] Speaker D: Yeah, you're so right. One room has to do so many things now. And obviously we've got an aging population. Maybe parents are coming home to live with us now because of the housing crisis, everything. And I think that one room I'm designing at the moment, can you believe it, is a cinema room. And then it's functioning as a kitchen as well. Well, two very different spaces because that's where the grandparents going to live.
[00:14:56] Speaker A: Just describing the room that you did
[00:14:58] Speaker C: at warehouse and to that point when you try to build these multifunctional spaces, it's even more important to get in early because you've got weight. You haven't got a rectangular box to deliver something in. It will be probably a massive L shaped room with lots of glass. So you need to have automated shading to dampen it, but also to control the light. Lighting control has to be done a certain way. Speaker placement. How do you. Maybe you've got such a big space because that's the style that people like living in now. Big open plan spaces. You might have two TVs. Do you want to see both TVs on show? Do you want to hide both of them? Is it okay to hide one? Show one. These all important conversations and you need to get in early.
[00:15:33] Speaker A: I just want to pick up on something else you said earlier where we were talking about value engineering and how do you actually protect the initial design from. From being valued engineered?
[00:15:44] Speaker C: I think we should start specifying what we do. We try our best to specify products that are right for the space. Like for example, construction materials. You have a structural engineer says this is the beam that you need to hold up the ceiling. Value engineering. Sometimes when it comes to speakers, they're an easy target. Client goes, budget gets constrained. They're like, let's save some money. Okay, can we go for a lower speaker? It's not going to perform the same in the speaker space as the one that we originally specified. Maybe the one that they heard and they liked the demo of. And that's maybe a year has passed while they're building the house since that demonstration. And all of a sudden it's an easy target.
But you need to kind of remind them that that is what's required for that room, for the experience that you initially wanted and what you wanted us to deliver you. Changing that doesn't just mean that you're saving money. There has to also be an impact in performance and quality in that, because it's not cheaper just for a reason that it's cheaper. So then the conversation sometimes goes, and maybe other areas of the house if you need to budge. Maybe we wire something and don't put it in. So we're not putting in a substandard. We're putting quality in where quality is needed. And the other part can be left pre wired for a year's time. Maybe that's a more sensible way to achieve the budget rather than start stripping stuff down to a lower performance level. Because maybe as your book to your book, you know, spend money wisely. Don't spend a lot of money in a bad way. Spend it in the right places.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: Are you having those conversations with the client or the Qs of the client,
[00:17:09] Speaker C: or is that something you want the
[00:17:10] Speaker A: architect or the designer to do for you?
[00:17:12] Speaker C: I think it's important to go as a united front and understand what is important, have the conversations. You know, if Alex came to me and said, oh, can we move this here? Like, that's not going to fit. We need a smaller one or a bigger one over here and just to work on that before, before you go to the client.
If everyone starts having different channels of engagement with the client, that's when it all gets very messy.
It's important to work these things out as a design team and then go to the client with the solution. Right. You wanted to move that door. That means X, Y and Z. Are you sure you want to move it?
[00:17:44] Speaker B: I think it's often as well, because if we're talking about budget, then budget is being moved around and it's coming from somewhere else. So I think when you're around that table and we're looking at your budget and I'm thinking, well, if they're going to spend it on your budget, then that's coming away from my budget. So it is important that you have a very, very good working relationship here and that you always need to keep in mind what is actually best for the client.
Just remind yourself that this is the client's house and this is not your house. And as much as you really want them to have, have the fabric or the sofa or the whatever, if you really know that the tech is imperative and it needs to go in at this stage and they could have that piece at a later date, you should be saying let's prioritize this and then we can revisit this later. It's the temptation to not be selfish.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: I think we've described, I think we've described what of the typical conflict points there. And Kate, I mean that kind of ideal working relationship that Alex has just described. I mean do you see integrators as part of the design team or contractors or a bit of both?
[00:18:59] Speaker D: I am seeing it more and more and I think you made a great point by, you know, it's that kind of being around the table and I love that phrase and I think it's having early on we think about structure before we do, let's say concept and planning already kind of think about clients budgets because you know, point in the book is you can save instantly from about a space this big, £50,000 and it walks you through how to do it. It's mainly to do with structure, but it's also the same to do with things like AV lighting controls in that future proofing by having that all integrated in this kind of 2 meter space. Let's say it's going, yeah, I'm going to run that channel for later. They're going to build a house in the garden later or they're going to going to renovate that area of their home later and future proofing. I think that's a really key point.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: Okay, do you see yourself as a designer or a contractor or both?
[00:19:46] Speaker C: Consultant first.
I think I would see myself as consultant first. Give clients the right advice, not sell them products, just to sell them the products you want to sell them. Guide them through a journey and just give them good solid advice. What comes out of it after that? The sale of the job or a spec list is sort of like a knock on effect. But really I think just be, have good integrity in terms of giving good advice because I think that comes back to pay you dividends in the future. There's been times when I've told client, you don't need that, just go, that
[00:20:15] Speaker D: one goes a long way.
[00:20:16] Speaker C: And that goes a long way. Because when you tell them, you know, the other time that you really should have that better screen projector speaker, whatever it may be, they listen to you. Because three times before that you said, you don't need to do that in the kids bathroom. Just this speaker will do.
[00:20:28] Speaker A: Okay, so in these perfect collaborations, where can things go wrong?
[00:20:34] Speaker C: Durgesh? I think different channels of communication, not everyone having their side chats with the client without other people being aware that things might be changing.
Also in terms of construction and coordination, not defining how much space you do need for things, not allocating, spending time on the. Not spending time on the boring bits. Maybe like, you know, is it ventilated? Have I got enough rack space? Where's it going to go? Oh, have you. Oh, you've put the rack room next to the bedroom. So I'm going to hear the fans all night spinning that. That problem you've created is going to last the client that entire. Ruin the house. Like they're going to live there for decades. Just, you know, not being strong enough on those things. Because sometimes you, you know, people say, oh, you can't go there, you need to go there. And you kind of think, oh, it's an easy battle. Let them. I don't want, I don't want to put the front up to fight against this. But sometimes you really need to put your feet in the ground and go, look, this is a fundamental thing. Not, you know, other things. I'll let go, but this is a fundamental thing. And list it out. X, Y and Z. These are the reasons you're going to have.
If you put this over here, it's just not going to work.
That's where it can go wrong.
[00:21:43] Speaker A: So do you think, do you think you almost to those kind of spatial concerns that technology designers might have?
[00:21:49] Speaker D: I do. I think we've got a duty as an architect because we are obviously we're working for our client. And I ask clients to have a list of needs but also a list of wants. Like, what do they really like? And not stereotype but, you know, male and female, whoever's living in the home, any couple will have, they'll have a very different view and something that's really important to them. So to come back to that list of needs and wants and I think, yeah, we have a duty. So going back to that again, we both probably touched on the same point is we're all human at the end of the day. We have a human need to feel wellness. You know, we're in a room now with kind of artificial light, but kind of have that home feeling at the end and that wellness feeling. So I think we do Have a duty to respond to the client's need directly. And as you say, it's not our project to full circle, kind of keep reminding ourselves of what's really particular to them. And you can have the big table, you can have the control panel, you can have that kind of lighting, but you can strip out maybe somewhere else of, I don't know, like a, dare I say it, like a finish or something later, somewhere else that doesn't need it. In the kids bedrooms, maybe.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: What sort of problems do you typically have with integrators where they perhaps haven't considered your spatial requirements or aesthetic requirements on the project?
[00:23:00] Speaker B: I mean, look, it's not always a bed of roses, for sure. I think if we were less, I suppose, with integrators, maybe more with construction.
But the way that I like to think about it, it did take me a long time to get to this point. But actually, we will end up working with each other far more than maybe with that one client. And then I think once you get that kind of mindset.
I've worked with my joiners and, you know, my decorators for a decade on multiple projects, and I think once you realize that that relationship is really key to a good and healthy working relationship, a project that feels like it's moving in the right direction, that you, you are. You have a, you know, a rapport with one another. Yes, it's really important that we deliver for the client. But maintaining those relationships with your fellow integrators, architects, quantity surveyors, project managers, not only will make your life so much easier, but it will from a. From a business perspective as well. You will get work from that. You know. You know, we've. We have already, you know, you've put me forward for jobs. I've put you forward for jobs because we've had a positive relationship working with each other last year.
And I think if you always remind yourself of that, it's key. You also have to stand your ground. And there will always be people that will push because we're human beings and there's really lovely people and then there's not so lovely people, but I mark their card and I. And no, and it's true. Because actually, if I don't, if I've not enjoyed this process or you've done something, or, you know, I'm not going to work with you again, and that's fine because there's enough people that I could work with, you know, on other projects. And if I sometimes see someone's name as being the lead contractor on a project. I will just say thank you, but no thank you.
[00:25:05] Speaker C: Alex is at that point, and I think that's where a lot of other designers and architects hopefully get to. To that exact point there where we're, you know, their partners in av. They're integrators. They're one or two or three that they like to work with. They almost treat them like their favorite suppliers because it's very common for interior designers. I go, like you said, oh, that's my curtain person. I will not work with anyone else. He hangs my curtains. We all want that. They're not there yet. Not every. Alex is there, but not everyone is there yet where you get pushed into a project that aggressively. Like, I will not do this project. I'm nucleus or honest, you know, that's where we want to be. And we value those relationships. When people see that value that we can bring and that's what we want to nurture. You know, something we're saying at wow, this year is technology is the next textile is like we are. We should look like we're fabric of the building. We should be that sort of passionate about it. Like, oh, you know, I'm bringing my A team in here. I trust them. I know how they work. It's going to streamline the process. I know. You know, I know what their deliverables are. They've done it for me before.
So often we're not brought in like that. We're just brought in maybe from the client, not from the designer. And you kind of question yourself, that's great. It came in from the client.
Did the designer not put anyone else forward before I got here? Which is great because I'm here now. But I think the industry has a lot where to go to get to the point where Alex maybe is, or Kate maybe. It's not. Not all designers, architects think that way.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: It's a huge response. Responsibility, though. And I think as interior designers, you will often be the ones that are bringing team in if. Unless the client has, you know, sort of instructed you themselves. So as a designer, even though you have a separate contract with the client, you know, if things go wrong, it's our phone that's ringing at all hours of night and day.
And. And so that's the reason why we tend to go back to the same people over and over again, because you have that level of trust ultimately.
And what I will also say is that it's not. What I've loved about Durgas as well, is that it's not just about.
It's an amazing Product. It's a great product that he delivers, but it's the way in which he does that. And I think as well to have that, you know, that personality that can talk to us non techie people about tech and make it feel that we can understand it, make us feel confident about it. And also I have no qualms with him having conversations with my client, you know, directly, which is not always the case when we're working, working with, you know, some other kind of people. So it's a full service offering. I think it's, it's being able. I know that if there's an issue and a problem, Durgis will deal with it.
I don't need to be laying awake at night. I know that I can pick up the phone and say, and he's got it, you know, and he can be in those difficult conversations and you know, similarly can charm somebody at the same, you know. So I think it's important to have.
Well, it's true, but it is important because that is a real struggle. You can have some amazing integrators, some fantastic contractors, but they just.
In terms of communication, that is where it falls down and that's huge. That's a massive part of the job. I would say 80% of the job is communication, communicating to your clients. Think about all of the people that we have conversations with every single single day on a project.
So if you're not able to do that effectively, that is also an area that needs to be looked at.
[00:28:43] Speaker A: All about communication skills, then.
[00:28:45] Speaker D: Yeah. You asked where things would go wrong and I typically say probably three main things would be ceilings. I'd say not having an honest conversation about what needs to go up there and where it's going to go. Joinery, having beautiful, beautiful grills and having that designed early on and making it thick enough basically. And lighting, I'd say they're probably the top three things where.
[00:29:03] Speaker A: What about lighting? What normally goes wrong with lighting?
[00:29:06] Speaker D: Well, even if you're working on some, you've got, let's say under a hundred thousand pound house and then you've got these multi million pound homes. We've all got different users and needs. So having the lighting respond to a user over speccing or under specking in terms of lighting and who's going to use it there. But also in these large homes where they've already had some of your kit in. So you know, recently I had one that already had, you know, I don't want to put a particular name out there, but this particular brand of lighting and it, it had to be worked with all the new lighting. So that kind of reconnection with new systems in future can sometimes go. It just need a bit of. That's why you need someone like Dagash to come in and say you've got
[00:29:42] Speaker C: this here lighting requires us a lot to do properly nowadays with lighting control you've got, you know who's specifying the lights, what are their dimming protocols, what modules they need, then all of that design process and then you've got the bit with the client, like you're not going to give them a grid of 20 switches on the wall. What are you going to do with their lighting scenes? What, how would they like to live day, evening, night off or you know, show them the value of lighting control, give them security through lighting. I think Wendy was giving me an obvious story we were talking last week about, you know, it's not just the control but it's the ease of control and the things you can do that you couldn't do with a traditional light switch and educators client. Like if you do hear a noise in the middle of the night, would you like one button by your bedside and all the lights come on. You've won the lady of the house over by that because she thought my husband's traveling all the time, that would be amazing to have.
So you've gained that credit from her by putting things like that. And these are all very valuable things. Even if you before the fancy bits of like scene control and security and all of that. And then the bit that I find the most, the biggest variable is the electricity electrician on site. I mean you can do lighting control with someone who's very, you know, methodical, understands, reads a schedule, wires it to your schedule and you get another one that says, oh yeah, I've done this 10 times before, never done it in his life. And then you're there picking up the pieces and basically redoing the work because otherwise the project is not going to get over the line. And that's just, that just comes down to the electrical contractor. But again that comes down to people working with people that they know that they've delivered before. When we work with an electrician that has delivered like there's no doubt we're going to walk in here, commission the system is going to work and the other one we're like all sounds great at the beginning. And then basically you're there for weeks untangling, oh, you wired that in wrong there. Wrong driver, wrong, you know, non dimming or wrong.
[00:31:25] Speaker A: Yeah, And I know Alex from interior designers, I speak to that. You're all super protective about ceilings, joinery, and what appears on walls. So again, having that good communication with the integrator about where things are going to be, what is going to be visible. Super important, I'd imagine.
[00:31:43] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. And again, it comes down to the individual client and what the brief is. I mean, most of my clients, they want the performance, but they don't want to see anything at all. They want it all to be hidden, all to be seamless and to be very easy to use.
So minimal buttons, but, you know, max four scenes, lighting scenes in. In any room.
And luckily, you know, when I work with Dzhogesh and he's very, you know, we align, we align. And again, it's.
When we did wow, House, it was. I had to actually design the room. And the room had been designed for about, I think it was about three or four, three months before we were actually put in touch.
And again, he could have come in and said, well, actually, you need to change this, this, this, this and this. But it wasn't that at all. It was, we're going to keep the design exactly as it is, but we're going to need to make some changes.
Like, we're going to need to now do fabric walling rather than having kind of lime wash walls, because we need to, you know, like, have speakers behind it. So they were like, small changes like that. But fundamentally the design didn't change. And I think it's important that clients get the performance that they want. But they want their home to be beautiful.
Ultimately, a lot of it is about the aesthetic and how they want to feel in the space.
And they don't want to see, you know, wires and tech. And it needs to feel really, really seamless.
[00:33:18] Speaker C: I think sell the technology by selling the aesthetic that it delivers. You know, we have so many great solutions here that. That technology can give you a great aesthetic. Don't sell the technology for the technology's sake. Sell the good technology because it achieves a great aesthetic by incorporating it. You know, it's architectural.
[00:33:33] Speaker B: It enhances. It enhances.
[00:33:36] Speaker A: I mean, that's interesting because that perhaps isn't natural for an integrator to actually lead with the aesthetic.
[00:33:42] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: That's much more.
You'll be receptive to that, won't you?
[00:33:47] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:33:49] Speaker C: It's key, the designer and the architect become your great salesforce. Because you might say, oh, I really want to sell this invisible speaker or this small aperture speaker that costs three Times four, times the price. You're making more money than the normal frisbee. You're not going to get it by the client, but if you sort of, you know, sort of team up with the designer and the architect, look, this is going to keep your ceiling clean. You've gone through all these efforts of plastering fittings, there's no air con grills, there's no nothing. And now we're going to put a frisbee up, you know, speaker, you know, what other options do we have? They'll sell it for you. You know, you basically create your own salesforce.
[00:34:25] Speaker D: In our practice we have an acronym called home. So H is start with a human who's using the space. You know, we've all kind of touched on the brief. Might be a playboy's mansion versus a kind of, you know, an elderly relative living solely. We're all very different. Start with the human. O, don't over engineer it. Just kind of look at it simply and work with integrators, work with structural engineers. Like you said, the whole team. M is the management of people. So just looking at management and E just really beautifully touched on is effortless, you know, to make something look beautiful, generally it's effortless.
[00:34:58] Speaker A: Okay, so on a project with talking ideal world scenarios, but actually it's not an ideal world out there. Change requests quite common. How do you manage that, Dagesh, when you get things pressed later than you'd like?
[00:35:11] Speaker C: I think the big mistake we make, and we're still learning it, is charge for change requests because you don't realize actually the impact that they make to do them properly.
You think a quick yes is an easy win, but actually if you haven't spent the time in looking at the impact of that, you might have hit an architrave now because the speaker is 10cm wider or the keypad's now hitting the door and you know, someone's moved it from the left to the right and someone's switched away the door. You think these things are really easy, oh, can I just do that? Or can I have that TV that's 2 inches bigger? You haven't then spent time reassessing the joinery package to see in coordination. So you have to be very careful with variations and they need time to be sort of be valued and engineered down to every aspect that they might knock on. So I think the only way really to do it is to actually charge people. We're trying to implement that a lot better than we have done in the past. Usually gone, oh, someone wants a bigger TV, sure. And yeah, you might, you know, made another £50 selling a bigger TV. But actually if you don't pass on all that information to everyone, the bracket might have changed size just for those few exchanges. The depth might have changed, the joinery aperture opening is going to change now. You haven't changed a custom width of the sound bar. There's all these things. And that's all again, redesigning properly so that when that, when all that comes together in the room, it all looks beautiful.
So I think that's something we all need to get better at.
[00:36:36] Speaker A: Sometimes those change requests might come direct from the client to you rather than through the interior design.
[00:36:42] Speaker C: Yeah, you need to, again round the table. You need to say, clients requested this, Alex. Okay, what do you think? Is this okay? Before, before you even spend the time doing it, run it through. These guys say, is this okay? Is there anything that you see? Because their brain, like our brain goes to the technology. Someone goes, oh, can I add a ninth zone of music? And we'll be like, oh, actually the app you have only has this many zones of music. So we'll go straight away, our brain will just go like that. But these people's brains will go to the bit.
Do you realize that? Now hits the piece of art we
[00:37:13] Speaker B: call them, you know, they're called change requests.
We actually call them pause because actually this is. Now it's a pause.
So we have to pause and we have to. So any good project manager will say that it's a pause and then they will talk to everybody that is involved in this change request and they'll say this is the change request and this is the knock on effect. And then they will go around and they will gather all of the costs in terms of cost implication, time implication from everybody that is affected by this change request. And then it is written up and then it's presented to the client and the client has to sign it, agree it, pay for it, and then we continue.
That is like, like that is how it should be done. I cannot tell you the amount of times when it is not done like that. And then you end up in some sort of discussion at the end where people are like, well, I didn't, I didn't agree to this or I don't want to pay this extra money or I don't want to, you know, and you can just avoid that by doing that bit of administrative work which is crucial and protects everybody involved and you're not moving forward with something and you know, without the proper sign offs and you being paid.
Nobody then is inconvenienced. No one's got their backup because, oh well, my joinery is out of whack now. And it's like, no, just. I think the transparency across projects just needs to improve and it will just protect everybody involved because as we know when we're working on these multi, multi million pound projects, you cannot leave any room for error or misinterpretation because if you do, it's like a, it can be a can of worms that gets opened.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: Indeed. Okay, and we've talked a bit about communication habits. Do you have like a communication process? Do you like, like specify, I don't know, a cadence of meetings?
Who needs to be in those rooms with the big tables where you're all sitting around it? Do you know that before you even start a project?
[00:39:26] Speaker D: Well, I think we get an idea early on of who the client is at a brief writing stage. So again, if something's really important to them and it's in their list of needs and wants, like I mentioned earlier, I think having that conversation early, then you already know what is not going to be value engineered later.
So I think having that written down clearly. But also back to your kind of charging of time. We have in our practice a set number of changes that are allowed variations and then if it goes past that goes on to hourly rate, it's very much documented. And if it goes past down here, the number of hourly rate charges goes on to a new fixed fee. So it's just written out from early on. It protects the integrity of the design because if you keep designing, keep designing, everyone's design, design just starts to get watered down and there's always clashes. Yeah, definitely.
[00:40:11] Speaker A: Okay, and then just in terms of that communication as well, do you specify how you want the documentation provided by the integrator or do you just allow the integrator to choose what they want to do?
[00:40:23] Speaker D: Yeah, we've got a spec document, so we, we continuously add to that. Whether anyone reads it or not, I'm not sure, but it's, it's what we would like to happen. It goes down from tiling setting out to. It's everything in a typical room. But there's obviously ways within that to be creative. But it means like lining up of X, Y, Z. And we have diagrams and we have typical setting out, then we have project setting out, which we find really helps.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: Okay, does that sound like the way you work?
[00:40:51] Speaker D: And pictures. Right,
[00:40:53] Speaker C: Pictures and images. I think one of the really valuable things that we did is sort of like standardized setting out of TV brackets and cable positions behind TVs, things that are kind of like hidden. But the way to do it, and it saves you having that conversation and making it up a different way you do it each time. So you might have me sending an email saying, I'll make this, you know, 200 mil apart, and then one of my other senior project managers make it, say, 150. But if you standardize it as a company, everyone's reading from the same hymn sheet. You don't. You avoid mistakes.
Because if you then change a product specification, you change that document with it and some product has changed. So you've gone, oh, now that's got wider that frame. So now let's change that document and space out the sockets wider from this point on, that's version two. And that's what you're issuing out. The more you can standardize on those things, the variance of mistakes become less.
[00:41:40] Speaker A: Is your experience that every integrator provides really good drawing information for you
[00:41:47] Speaker B: on the whole. On the whole. But then, you know, it's very few. I mean, and I work with the same people over and over again, so I know the standard and quality of their drawings. I mean, look, we are interior designers and I can look at some of their drawings and just be like.
Like, it absolutely will go over my head for sure.
I'm getting better, to be fair, as the years go on. But again, I. It comes. Comes down to that trust. Honestly. If, like, they tell me, this is, this is the way to do it and this is what's going to work, and then I can see it and I can understand it, and the project managers there and the contractors and everyone's singing off the same hymn sheet.
I'm not going to sort of say, no, I think you need to do it this way, because I don't know better than you.
[00:42:39] Speaker C: We had a good example of that at Warehouse with the, with the piece of art that we had revealing the bar. Alex and I had a bar at one point on one side and a piece of art on the other side. And they moved the door to the room next door. So we had to choose Alex. Like, we're gonna have to choose R or bar. I was like, oh, maybe we can have both. She said, what do you mean? I said, I've got this mechanism. Complete trust, right? Really, really. Architectural detail with the joiner. Didn't, didn't. She said, right, you and, you know, St. James Interiors, who did the joinery? You guys work it out. We physically mocked it up on site. Tolerances were like millimeters. And it's just a trust thing. Like, yeah, I get, I get protects my intent and my design intent. You guys are doing something interesting to elevate it and I completely trust you to deliver this, even though it's quite a technical piece of coordination.
[00:43:25] Speaker B: And I did not look at those, I did not look at those drawings.
But, but I saw, you know, they, they took me to site and they, they were like, this is the gap. This is the this, this is the that. And I was like, yeah, if there
[00:43:39] Speaker D: is going to be a clash detection there, speak with us before going directly to the client. I think that's quite an industry thing to everyone wants to people please and do a great job. The client's paying your fee directly. But that is, in my experience where it can go wrong is going directly to the client without the architect or interior designer and making a spec change on board in their micro bubble. And then it's almost just like your design. It doesn't matter because you're pleasing the client. But actually that's definitely not the right way to go. We always been fined and you made
[00:44:10] Speaker A: a point earlier about CPD's being really valuable for architects. Do CPD's resonate with you? Do you, do you want CPD's delivered by people like Dagesh?
[00:44:19] Speaker B: I think they are very helpful and I think a lot more suppliers are just doing it now. I know there's quite a lot of bathroom suppliers that are bringing plumbers in and then are getting interior designers around the table to talk to us about flow and all of these things that maybe we have not considered. But we absolutely, I mean we consider it, but like lots of people don't. And they just look very much, you know, specifying the beautiful tap but not understanding, understanding like what goes on and what needs to be in the wall. And so I think a lot more, a lot more suppliers are offering cpd, if you want to call it want of a better word. But definitely, rather than just having us as, you know, wafting around with a glass of champagne and trying to sell us beautiful products, it's actually far more valuable actually to do a session on, you know, on technology or you know, what's going in the wall or whatever. Because like you say, we are an extension of sales team as well for these suppliers and these brands. And so the more that we know, the more confident that we are to sell the product to our clients. Especially if something is a very high value product.
We then have the rationale behind why are you buying this you know, 20,000, 50,000, 100,000 pound piece is because of this, this, this, this and this.
And so absolutely do it. I mean, interior design is often like CPD is not the sexiest thing and we're not known for running to those events. But I think they are important.
[00:46:03] Speaker A: What's your experience, Dagesh designers and architects more receptive to you giving them CPD's now?
[00:46:08] Speaker C: No, I mean ours is probably the most fun, I would say. I don't know if I'm biased or it's probably the most interesting and one of the most fun things to talk about.
It definitely plants a seed. That's what you're doing. You're planting a seed with those people and you're showing them. And it's forever evolving.
You know, plumbing maybe evolves at much lower rate, but we're forever evolving. So it's not too for an interior designer architect to go to a CPD and then not go to one for another five years because we're looking at something completely different. So it's something that should be constantly re engaged with. But it definitely plants the seed because they kind of understand the value of what you have to bring in, what you have to offer and what's out in the marketplace.
So it's a very important thing for sure.
[00:46:45] Speaker A: You don't have a showroom, do you?
[00:46:47] Speaker C: No, I don't have a showroom. I didn't. We did one for kef loudspeakers two years ago. Great. Portland Street. So we use that as an example of our work. And obviously it's great demonstration space because it has many podcast studio, Alex has been there, forecast studio, event space, you know, immersive cinema room and a media room and a meeting room. So it kind of has all the different sort of areas and improves the quality more. Use it to show the quality of our work and our delivery. And then we do things like wow, house for the last two years and maybe some other things in the future
[00:47:16] Speaker A: because I'd imagine that as well for an architect, you want to experience something, it's being sold to you as an experience, don't you?
[00:47:21] Speaker D: Yeah. And you go to one, you go to an experience center or you go to a different day or you go to an event or something and you see something, you make that connection with that person. One you're going to forever spec them. But also, you know, you said a bit unsexy earlier about specifying like, I don't know, like a data rack space. You know, it's going to, you know, it's coming. So let's just put it in early. But I think if we're excited by the project, we can relay that to the client and see what's new and contemporary and pretty cool, you know, we can put that in front of them and it just shows everyone it's not kind of just putting it in for the sake of it. I think if we can see what's coming and as you said earlier, stay in your lane, you know, if you know your bit, you can tell me what's new and contemporary and coming. We can't do it all. We don't know what's coming out in this. So, you know, someone was explaining to Me earlier this 8K is more than, you know, Apple. And I. Sorry, I'm very silly explaining it like that, but I'm like, wow, like, that's amazing, you know, and I want to know more, but it's not my world. So I'm like, well, that's where Dagesh would come in. And that I'd said, I've heard this. Can I have this?
[00:48:17] Speaker A: You'd have an expert.
[00:48:18] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:48:18] Speaker C: And so many of the distributors and brands, you know, while not all the integrators have their own showroom, so many of the distributors and brands have great showrooms all around London and all around the UK that we can take clients
[00:48:28] Speaker B: to, I think, as well, fundamentally.
So the business that I've just set up is called Avon Collective, for this very reason. I've walked in here today and I've never been to this event before, and it feels very, very, very different to the interior design events that I go to. And I've set this collective up because of everything that we've discussed today, because we are all present on these projects, but we all are in our verticals and silos most of the time.
And for 18 months, myself and my business partner realized that we're all having these conversations individually, but we're not having them together.
And so, you know, this collective is so that we are all going to be in the same rooms at the same event. So this is a great event for your industry.
But I think where Wild House has been incredible. It's kind of like you've come out of this event and then you've come into our world and then everybody that goes to that event are interior designers and they've gone, oh, my gosh, I had no idea that this was a possibility, that these products existed and they delivered by people like you that I can understand.
And you've made it fun. And I think More of that needs to happen so that you guys are coming over to our world and we're coming to your world. And then we're also around the table with the contractors and the PMs. Because I've sat here today and I was like, yeah, no, they're really bad communicators, but they're probably going to sit across the table and say, yeah, but you're really this. And actually we need to hear that from one another so that we can see where the gaps are, see where maybe the miscommunication and the misalignment is, and then plug those gaps and meet, meet each other so that we can, you know, collaborate and amplify and, you know, cross pollinate and etc. And you can't do that in a room like, I don't want to go to another event which is a room full of interior designers. It's not going to do anything for me from a business perspective.
I'm not going to get work from it. I'm not going to really learn very much. I've learned far more today coming here and seeing this.
But how many of us are going to come to an event like this?
So it's important.
[00:50:43] Speaker A: You've started as a trickle.
[00:50:45] Speaker B: No, but it's true. But I think we need to have events that it's. Everyone is actually there in the same room because then you're gonna get everybody coming in and it's far more important, I think.
[00:51:01] Speaker A: A great way to end this conversation. Thanks very much, Kate. Thanks, Dagesh. And thanks, Alex.
[00:51:05] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:51:06] Speaker D: Thank you, Jeff.
[00:51:07] Speaker A: You can find out more about the Integrated Home on our social channels at IntegratedHome podcast. The Integrated Home is a Wildwood plus production we support Together for Cinema.
[00:51:24] Speaker E: The Integrated Home supports Together for Cinema. Together for Cinema is a community interest company that collaborates with the AV industry to design and install cinema rooms in children's hospices and other deserving locations across the uk.
So far, thanks to the huge generosity of manufacturers, distributors and integrators freely giving of their time, products and Expertise, we've created 46 dedicated cinema equivalent to an installation value of about 1.2 million pounds. In these special places, families, staff and volunteers are now enjoying fantastic movie experiences together and helping to create very, very special memories. Help our industry continue to make a difference. Visit TogetherForCinema.co.uk and find out how you can be involved to make short lives just that little bit better.
